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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>First of all Brent, your man deserved it.
Treat me with respect and I will treat you with respect, he failed to do
so. He decided he was going to be a jerk so I responded in
kind.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Second of all, I in no way used Red Hat symbols or
trademarks at All in fact when I talked to your rep the last time he told me
that if I did preinstall and distribute retail versions I could not use any
Powered by Red Hat stickers on my machines or use Red Hat logos in my
promotions, Which I have not done I will bring a couple of my brochures to
the next meeting to show you. The only thing I say in my brochures is Sold
with Linux, the only excerpt that i put in my brochures regarding Red Hat, is
versions availabe Red Hat Linux and Open Linux Workstation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have no problem with your Linux offerings,
I still do believe that Red Hat Linux is the best distro out there to
date. I meant some of your company reps suck. If Red Hat had told me
that to get support I had to be a registered OEM I would have had no problem
with going to another company. But what did they do. One told me I
could do it like this, then a month later I have another one of your reps
screaming at me telling me that its unacceptable and that if I keep it up we are
going to sue you, thats where my problem lies I even gave him the name of the
rep that told me I could preinstall and distribute retail versions.
Instead of saying okay I will check it out and give you a call back, he tells me
that no rep would ever say that. So he was calling me a liar. If he had
gone to talk to the man, and he remebered me, which he would have Im a hard
person to forget, all hyper and jumping off walls all the time and cantsit still
for 5 minutes. call me back say okay sorry the rep was wrong, hey no
problems. It is called courtesy and being polite.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have no problems with your prices and your
policies at all. And I have no problem with your product at all. But
you guys need to sit down tell all your reps what the policies are so that you
can avoid problems like these to begin with. If your reps dont know the
policies and its apparent some of them dont you will get conflicting
stories. I mean my mother doesnt work for me but she knows my policies for
my business in fact she has lined me up two customers that I have to set up on
Tuesday, one told her that thay wanted Windows XP and she told them " Sorry my
son doesnt do Windows XP ". So what they are doing is buying the Machine
and buying Windows XP and Im going to set up a Dual boot machine for them.
But what if she had told them " Sure no problem " I would have been messed up,
its called positive communication. But with Red Hat, one tells me
one thing another tells me another and the dude still couldnt tell me if I could
even sell the boxed Retail versions without preinstalling them. I dont
really want an OEM partnership, my original plan is to service all the linux
community not just one version. Mandrakesoft has the same policy as
Red Hat and their rep told me that right off the bat so I left with no
confusion. Your reps gave me a headache.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Subject: Re: [TriLUG] Re: gentle reminder<BR>From:
Brent Fox <<A
href="mailto:chinfox@nc.rr.com">chinfox@nc.rr.com</A>><BR>To: <A
href="mailto:trilug@trilug.org">trilug@trilug.org</A><BR>Cc: Thunder Bear <<A
href="mailto:thunderbear@yonderway.com">thunderbear@yonderway.com</A>><BR>Date:
29 Aug 2002 10:21:42 -0400<BR>Reply-To: <A
href="mailto:trilug@trilug.org">trilug@trilug.org</A><BR><BR>Full disclosure: As
many of you know, I work for Red Hat, but my<BR>opinions stated here are mine
alone and do not represent my employer in<BR>any way.<BR><BR>On Wed, 2002-08-28
at 15:27, Roberto J Dohnert wrote:<BR>> Sorry about the language Chris.
Just it is enough to upset anybody,<BR>> especially when you get so many
conflicts from one company. At one point<BR>> and I think you guys will
remember this they told me that it was fine for me<BR>> to do that because
they couldnt offer support on the complimentary CDs that<BR>> they
offer, Which is fine I can understand that. But when you tell me
that<BR>> if I spend 59.00 on a standard edition of RH 7.3 just so I can get
that<BR>> support, then refuse my customers service it makes me look like a
scumbag<BR>> especially when I worked so hard to push the product.
<BR><BR>The issue is that you're selling pre-loaded machines, not just
reselling<BR>box copies of the OS. If you're going to use Red Hat's name
and<BR>trademark to help you sell machines, Red Hat wants you to pay for
the<BR>privilege of using trademarks that they own. RH can decide to
license<BR>their trademarks any way they choose. <BR><BR>> I had several
would<BR>> be customers turn me away because I dont preload MS Windows which
means I<BR>> have to prove the viability of Linux on the desktop.
Unlike Compaq and Dell<BR>> which offer a Windows alternative, But Im
just starting out, I cant afford<BR>> 748.00 for support options and I sure
cant afford the licensing fees for MS<BR>> Windows. <BR><BR>Ok, so the
OEM agreement has a price ($748, apparently). You decide you<BR>can't
afford $748. Guess what? No deal. This is where
reasonable<BR>people decide that they can't come to an agreement and go on about
their<BR>lives. This happens in business all the time.<BR><BR>But you
couldn't stop there. Oh no. You decide to say some
unspeakably<BR>awful things to the salesperson and then run to your local LUG to
tell<BR>everyone how much Red Hat "sucks". I can't think of any reason to
ever<BR>say the things you said to another human being. Ever. And
then be so<BR>proud over what you've done to go brag about it in a public forum,
even<BR>mentioning the salesperson by name. What a nice fellow you
are.<BR><BR>Salespeople are not in the business of turning down money. If
the<BR>salesperson decided not to do business with you because doing so
would<BR>ultimately cost the company more than it brings in, then they made
the<BR>right decision for the company and the shareholders. <BR><BR>It's
not RH's problem that you're just starting out and that you can't<BR>afford the
OEM agreement. You seem to want all the benefits of an OEM<BR>partnership
without having to pay for it. I'm sorry but that's not how<BR>business
works.<BR><BR>> The threat was worded like this " If you continue to preload
Red<BR>> Hat Linux without being a registered OEM we will sue you and it
doesnt<BR>> matter if you buy a retail version or not we will not offer any
support for<BR>> anybody who buys a computer preloaded with Red Hat Linux
from any reseller<BR>> who is not an OEM. wether it is a supported Retail
version or not." But my<BR>> concern is that these people put the faith in me
and my systems on my word<BR>> alone. If they need support and Im not
available who do they turn to ? <BR><BR>Again, it's not RH's problem that you
made promises to your customers<BR>that you couldn't keep because you weren't a
registered OEM. RH never<BR>made any promises to your customers, you
did.<BR><BR><snip><BR><BR>> Red Hat needs to relearn its role
because<BR>> they say " We are the best " but they havent showed me anything
to suggest<BR>> they are the best. <BR><BR>And what is Red Hat's role,
exactly? Red Hat has done more to promote<BR>Linux than any other
company. They GPL all the software they write for<BR>their distro.
SuSE doesn't do that. Red Hat makes the ISOs available<BR>for anyone to
download for free. SuSE doesn't do that either. Somehow<BR>people
get the idea that just because Red Hat gives away the software<BR>they should
give away everything else including support, use of<BR>trademarks, etc.
It's not a charity.<BR><BR>Roberto, you're a businessman. Let's say a
customer comes to you and<BR>says, "I want to buy a machine." You say,
"Great! Which one would you<BR>like?" Customer says, "The top of the
line. But I only want to pay $50<BR>bucks." You say, "But that
machine costs $2000. I cannot afford to<BR>sell it for $50." The
customer says, "I demand you sell it to me for<BR>$50." Again, you say,
"No." So the customer curses you like you are a<BR>piece of garbage and
then goes and tells the world how bad you "suck". <BR>Sounds like you could do
without customers like that. Do you see the<BR>connection
here?<BR><BR>> The only thing I have gotten from them is insults,<BR>>
misinformation, threats and contempt.<BR><BR>Ok, this is what really set me
off. When I read your original email to<BR>TriLUG back in May, I took time
out of my day to go talk to the people<BR>in Sales and try to figure out what
happened and smooth things over. I<BR>was really nice to you and tried to
help you out, and now you say that<BR>"the only thing I have gotten from them is
insults, misinformation,<BR>threats and contempt." Baloney. I don't
know why you never received<BR>the free cds that were promised to you, but from
your behavior to the<BR>salesperson, is that any wonder? <BR><BR>>
----- Original Message -----<BR>> From: "Thunder Bear" <<A
href="mailto:thunderbear@yonderway.com">thunderbear@yonderway.com</A>><BR>>
To: <<A href="mailto:webwarrior@mac.com">webwarrior@mac.com</A>><BR>>
Cc: <<A href="mailto:steering@trilug.org">steering@trilug.org</A>><BR>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 11:58 AM<BR>> Subject: gentle
reminder<BR>> <BR>> ><BR>> > Thanks, and please keep us apprised
of the situation.<BR>> ><BR>> > BTW - I'd like to hear more about
the legal threat Red Hat gave you WRT<BR>> > preloading their distro on
machines. Correct me if I'm wrong, but<BR>> > doesn't the GPL
prevent them from doing any such thing?<BR><BR>Thunder Bear, as I understand it
the GPL allows anyone to pre-load the<BR>actual bits on the Red Hat cd, only
they can't use the Red Hat<BR>trademarks to help them sell the machine without
authorization from the<BR>trademark owner. In order to sell a machine with
"pre-loaded Red Hat<BR>Linux" as one of the features, you have to pay Red Hat
for the ability<BR>to use the trademark.<BR><BR>I think it's the same sort of
thing that happened with CheapBytes<BR>selling copies of the Red Hat Linux
distro as "Red Hat Linux." No one<BR>has the right to use trademarks that
they don't own. I think if Roberto<BR>wanted to pre-load the actual bits
but call it "Roberto's Linux" then<BR>that would be ok. I don't understand
all the nuances of trademark law,<BR>but it seems that a company must defend
it's trademarks or risk losing<BR>them.<BR><BR>> ><BR>> > Your post
illustrates the beauty of the Linux community in that if one<BR>> > distro
is screwing you, there are many other fine distros to turn to.<BR>>
><BR><BR>Yes, there are many fine distros and that is one of the great
strengths<BR>of Linux. However, I don't see how Red Hat "screwed" anybody
here. <BR><BR><BR>Cheers, <BR>
Brent<BR><BR><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>