[TriLUG] different versions of 7.2 for sale]

[al johson]

This argument reminds me of what happened a very long time ago when
Commodore brought forth the Pet and C-64 machines which cost about half what
Apple and IBM (and others) were charging for their PC's. (This pre-dated the
Macintosh). There was great anger that Commodore had brought "fire to the
masses" with their inexpensive C-64 machine (which in case you didn't know
was the first personal computer that sold in the millions--more than any
manufacturer had ever sold before, including Big Blue).
      I would say that if Red Hat is improving their software to make
certain tasks easier to perform that should  only be expected in any case.
To argue that Linux shouldn't be used by the "unwashed masses" is (like the
earlier complaint of "giving fire to the masses") ridiculous. If you had to
operate a PC back then (and especially an IBM or Apple or Commodore 64
computer!!) using only command lines, without any GUI, you might understand
why just about everyone was happy when the GUI's finally came out for just
about every personal computer.
     The only problem was who ended up making the GUI for IBM computers!! If
you ever saw the first version of Windows,  you would never have predicted
that Microsoft would be the one to monopolize the IBM marketplace!! It was
(and in my opinion continues to be)  a piece of junk. That doesn't mean,
however, that someone else won't be able to do any better, and Redhat
(utilizing the latest versions of Gnome and KDE of course) should be
encouraged to do a better job with every edition they produce. If you sit
down and compare any version of  LINUX to virtually any Microsoft product
the quality and flexibility just shines through. It is the only popular OS
which allows one to operate a PC anyway he/she wishes (command or GUI). If
you don't want to use Gnome or KDE, no one is forcing you!! In fact you can
recompile the kernel and fine tune it to run on computers many consider
obsolete. So let RedHat keep improving its products, if you don't like their
"improvements", you can always discard them!! Frankly I hope that they have
at least provided new soundcard and printer installers (for those who need
them) which were previously installed only after you installed the O.S. I
believe that Servers and Workstations can co-exist in the same O.S. without
problems. The fact that these two (Workstation and Server) kinds of machines
have different requirements doesn't mean an O.S. cannot have the strengths
of BOTH without being weakened by doing so!! In fact the only way it can
have the strengths of Both is by having both !! As you can tell, however,
I'm a Mandrake follower precisely because its loader is so easy to use
(Mandrake does indeed bring "fire to the masses", and does an excellent job.
However, RedHat no doubt feels the Mandrake heat and must improve their
loaders to compete. If you don't want the new fire, no one says you can't
put out the parts you don't like. Or you can even keep using an OLD version
of RedHat (no one is forcing you to update--virtually all the applications
will still run on it!!) Try doing that with any Microsoft product !!  :-)

----- Original Message -----
From: Vestal, Roy L. <rvestal at rti.org>
To: <trilug at trilug.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: [TriLUG] different versions of 7.2 for sale]


> Being one from the Windoze world, I can say that I like the "bloating" in
> the install. I'm learning this from experience as well as books.  I don't
> have the *nix background like alot of the folks in TriLUG. Being used to
> bloat from the master himself, Mr. G., it does help some.
>
> I do have one request, if any of the RH folks are reading, the installer
> from Mandrake is a lot easier to use for those of us that are learning
this
> way. There is a lot of front end, and the install takes longer, but it
> helped me understand what I was installing. I personally WANT to use RH
> Linux, since I'm a homegrown NC boy, I prefer RH to any other. Call me a
> hick, or a good ol' boy, but I plan on hanging on.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brent Verner
> To: trilug at trilug.org
> Sent: 10/23/2001 9:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [TriLUG] different versions of 7.2 for sale]
>
> On 23 Oct 2001 at 10:58 (-0400), Paul D. Boyle wrote:
> | Matt Jezorek quoted Beth Ellison writing:
> | > > Damn. Yep. There is no longer a $30 box set. I hate that. And I
> was told
> | > > that it's because "we aren't focusing on the desktop market" and
> the $30
> | > set
> | > > "wasn't creating revenue." I shudder at phrases like that. They
> sound so
> | > > much like the exact things that free, open-source software was
> built to
> | > work
> | > > against.
> |
> | This idea of that RedHat isn't focusing on the desktop market is a
> | little schizoid on RedHat's part and smacks of intellectual
> dishonesty.
>
>   In defense of Redhat, I can only think that you do not understand the
> difference between "focusing on the desktop" and "being aware that not
> every Redhat admin in the business world is a long time *nix user."  I
> consult for people who use Redhat only as server machines, and I can
> assure
> you that these installs would not exist if Redhat required a *nix guru
> to
> install/maintain.  You must remember that Redhat is, in practice, taking
> server
> positions where a Windows machine would have been used.  There is no way
> this
> would even be /possible/ without the "bloat(ing)"[1] you refer to, so I
> wrap up
> by suggesting you think about what kind of user is running many of the
> Redhat
> (server) installs, and reconsider your view that they are lying[2] about
> not 'focusing on the desktop'.  Also, remember that to cleanse those
> "unwashed
> masses" of their Windows filth, we've gotta get them in the /near/ a
> shower >:=)
>
> | If this is so, then why are they bloating there distribution with
> desktops
> | like GNOME or KDE, when for a server any old (and I do mean old)
> window
> | manager would do.  If RedHat was really only catering to the server
> | market I would think that the RedHat distribution would look more like
> a
> | *BSD distribution.
>
>   Being a FBSD user/fan, I can say that *BSD only meets the needs of
> experienced
> *nix users, and I'm quite certain that all competent *nix admins are
> already
> stuck to their tool/OS of choice.  There is no /new market/ in that
> status quo,
> which is antithetical to a business' attempts at growth.  Would you
> suggest that
> redhat try to convert the handful of experienced *nix users, or that
> they try
> to get a chunk of the "unwashed masses?"
>
> | They have spent a lot time and effort dumbing down
> | linux installation and adminstration chores so the "unwashed masses"
> | of Windows users would feel more comfortable.
> |
> | > > bought the cheap box set just to support the cause. And I bet
> we'll lose
> | > > many of them now.
>
>   There are /many/ ways of supprorting the cause.  If you are capable of
> fixing bugs, send patches.  If you notice bugs, send comprehensive bug
> reports.
> The number of man hours that you can save a company like redhat is more
> valuable
> than the $2.50 profit they'd make on selling the $30 boxed set.  Your
> time and
> expertise are the most valuable thing you can bring to the open source
> community
> in small chunks.
>
> rants,
>   Brent
>
>
> [1] Personally, I agree with you on the bloat issue(s), but I keep in
> mind that
>     the target audience is not me.  I choose to 'pay' for my free
> software with
>     time, by contributing to projects whose work I benefit from.
>
> [2] To this simple mind, your euphemism of "intellectual dishonesty" was
> not
>     very effective :-\.  While I'm no fan of Redhat's distro, I do
> realize the
>     great benefit they have been to this community.  I may frequently
> criticize
>     their product, but to speak badly of them is only doing the
> community harm,
>     and undermining strides we have taken in the past two years.  Open
> source
>     is finally :) making inroads into large corporations, and it bothers
> me that
>     comments like yours may be (mis)construed and cast a negative light
> on one
>     of the major forces behind the success of linux.  If the choice is
> between
>     Redhat or $non_linux, Redhat always gets my vote, though I try my
> best to
>     sneak debian or FBSD in ;-)
>
> --
> "Develop your talent, man, and leave the world something. Records are
> really gifts from people. To think that an artist would love you enough
> to share his music with anyone is a beautiful thing."  -- Duane Allman
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