[TriLUG] RR and pre-meeting subjects :

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Thu, 2002-06-13 at 23:56, Ben Pitzer wrote:
> Andy,
> 
> Look, here's the deal.  Have you ever worked in an ISP environment?  The
> fact is that no matter how well you set something up, people will find a
> way to break it.  Have you ever had an ISP that worked flawlessly?  I
> sure as hell haven't, and I've worked for almost every one I've had to
> date.  Look, we're not imcompetent.  In fact, I'm right now working with
> some of the most competent, dedicated, and highly skilled folks I've
> ever worked with.  We make the best of what we're given, which to be
> honest, is pretty good.  However, if someone out there wants to leave
> their mail relay open, well, there's not alot we can do about it right
> away.  Our problem with this mail thing has not been us.  It's been
> uninformed users who either violate their AUP, or else fail to properly
> configure their servers to prevent external abuse.  As an ISP, there's
> little we can do about it except scramble to respond when it happens. 
> There have been other mitigating factors as well, all outside of our
> realm of control, either as engineers, or as a company.
> 

Not a sysadmin.  I didn't say you were.  I said that its been about a
year.  Bottom line is I don't give a rats behind if its your fault or
your bosses fault.  The fact is I pay money, email has been very
unreliable for a period of about 1 year. That is more than patient.  You
keep saying "With what we're given".  Anyhow, I'm a "customer" of a
monopoly.  I can't switch to DSL, because of where I am.  So my bill is
exceptionally high compared to what people in other regions pay.  Well
for what I pay I expect the DNS server to work near-24/7 (I'm actually
pretty understanding if its not wonderfully reliable at 2am).  Secondly,
I expect to receive all of my email on roughly the day it was sent. 
Lastly I expect to always be able to send my email.

Aren't I breaking my AUP by running Linux?  

Anyhow, you keep taking this personally, if its not your fault then this
is aimed at whoever's fault it is.  Other ISPs manage to run email
servers under the same conditions more successfully.  I don't have a
choice to switch to one of those or I would.  (Dial up is not an option)

Did I ever say "road runner engineers or Ben Pitzer is an idiot"?  If I
did and its not your fault, I'm sorry (I don't recall that though).  The
fact is still...  I'm PAYING money, I'm NOT getting what I expect.

> I'm risking my ass here by putting this on a list.  I want you folks to
> know, however, that I'm willing to be a resource to you so long as it
> doesn't get abused.  I am not front line tech support.  If you can't get
> help from them, and they won't escalate you despite repeated calls,
> emails, etc., then I'd be willing to listen.  But I am afraid that I
> take a little offense to being alluded to as being incompetent by
> someone who refuses to ask the facts before ranting.  I take my job very
> seriously, and take quite alot of pride in it. I think that I and all my
> coworkers do a very good job.  Front line tech support may not be at
> your level of computing expertise, but they do not take care of RR's
> mail servers.  I do.  Andy, I appreciate your frustration, but people
> are much more willing to help out and make things better when you don't
> make ignorant, uninformed statments.
> 

But you're misinterpreting them.  I don't CARE whose fault it is (why
should I).  I only care that a percentage of the over high sum I pay
each month goes to a service that I'm practically not provided (DNS and
email).  If its you're boss's fault because he's having you run exchange
on a 386 or whatever, then he's an idiot and I'm unhappy with him.

The frontline support people I understand, I don't expect them to know
anything.  Going through the card where I pretend to run windows before
they realize its their problem is a bit annoying but *shrug*, as in the
rest of life, I'm that other 1%.  

And don't get me wrong, I'm thoroughly impressed with the network
uptime!  I've had roadrunner working when my cable wasn't!  (which
freaked me out).  Its the DNS and SMTP service that sucks. 

> Now, that being said, all flames back in my direction for this outburst
> will be henceforth killed in queue, and I will not be responding to
> them.  If you have a legitimate question, or can make civil replies,
> I'll be happy to talk with you.  You can also find me on #trilug on the
> irc.openprojects.net network most weekdays.
> 

Read my messages over (or scroll down).  The flames clearly say "I don't
care whose fault it is, it doesn't change the fact that the email server
is busted half the time".  Here are my greviences

1. DNS server goes down a lot!  They always both go down at once so
backup DNS is a joke.  (if its not the same box) And they still reply to
pings when down.

2. SMTP server replies "out of memory" a LOT.  (even from windows).

3. My email to and fro mail lists is getting "bounced".  Pier Fumagalli
of the Apache Software Foundation has written postmaster at nc.rr.com about
this (there are more than one people here that this is a problem for). 
A message from a comrade (and fellow LUG member) of mine just got
bounced and he had to resend it.  If you'd like the headers I'll be
happy to send them to you, but the error was about looping (which I
suspect is bogus).

4. Sometimes POP server doesn't respond and its gotten slower recently
for downloading mail.

Correct at least the top 3 and you'll stop hearing us flame (justly)
roadrunner.  Anyhow, soon trilug will have a new email server up and
I'll be working on my own DNS, so maybe we'll solve our own problems. 
Or maybe DSL will come out here and we can switch.

-Andy

> Regards,
> Ben Pitzer
>  
> On Wed, 2002-06-12 at 23:18, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > Kevin - The Alchemist - Sonney wrote:
> > 
> > >Some quick notes :
> > >- First up, before everyone gets their knickers into too big a twist,
> > >I've just gotten word from a reliable source that the mail problems on
> > >RR are pretty evil, but not their fault. Patience is required, and if
> > >you ever meet a RR tech, buy him or her a tasty beverage.
> > >  
> > >
> > After a year of regular problems, who cares WHAT the problem is?  I 
> > don't care who's fault it is or
> > what the reasons, their stuff doesn't work.  I don't give a large 
> > rodant's posterior why or whose fault
> > I pay some rediculous sum a month and they can't get it right.  Whether 
> > its the little guy who needs
> > permission to hug the server's fault or the fat cat sitting in the 
> > window office who cares.
> > 
> > >- next up, I've not managed to get the donated airport configs cleared.
> > >If someone would be so kind as to bring a OSX mac that can reconfigure
> > >the beast, I'd greatly appreciate it. oh, Thanks again for the Airport
> > >Roberto!
> > >
> > >- I'll have some really cool news at the meeting, and will forward it to
> > >the list afterwords. But those of you at the meeting will get first dibs
> > >at it *grin*
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
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> 
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