[TriLUG] C# and .NET

Mon Jul 1 14:24:04 EDT 2002

Andy,

Nowhere did I say I was going to "bet my career" on C#. I am still a student
and a happy C/C++ programmer. I had simply expressed some interest in the
language itself and where things were going to go from here. If it was only
MS leading the C#/.NET effort, I normally wouldn't take a second look at it,
however as I said before, with GNU and Ximian being involved, I'm interested
in what will happen with all this mess. I guess the fact that I was implying
I am an interested observer got lost in the discussion. You yourself may
have already totally ruled out C# in favor of Java, but I haven't. Please
respect that.

While I have no problems with Java, past the issue of control Sun has over
it and the speed problems that I'VE seen with it, I see Java, C# and
whatever else (maybe Python) as competing to be the dominant general-purpose
language to continue to replace C (and possibly start to replace C++) in the
next decade, give or take (??). Some major things I myself will consider
when choosing to learn a new language are (1) good multiple OS support and
(2) the largest userbase and biggest job market. I wouldn't really mind
programming in any of those three aforementioned languages from what I've
seen of them, short of MS's windows-only .net if it comes to be, of course.
Many universities are teaching Java these days so your hopes of Java
continuing to gain more ground in the job market may come true, who knows.

And of course Sun made Java work well on Windows. They have every reason in
the world to do that, if not for the huge userbase alone.

I just asked if people had any experience with C# and .net....I didn't ask
to start a flamewar with the Java people.

Robby

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <acoliver at apache.org>
To: <trilug at trilug.org>
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 7:21 AM
Subject: Re: [TriLUG] C# and .NET

> Robby Dermody wrote:
>
> >I guess with C# and the open source attention it's been getting, I was/am
> >excited that it just might be the next good language to transition to. As
> >
> Have you really looked closely at C#?  IT *IS* Java--.  There is VERY
> little advantage over Java.
> (lightweight types).  Mono is not quite baked yet.  But I'd certainly
> not discourage you from looking at C#.
> I would personally consider it a bad career move to bet my career on it,
> but I never was a bettin' man.
> If you're not a Windows man, it is doubtful that the .NET platform will
> ever be up to snuff (period - ha ha) on
> other platforms.  So I would not consider it a viable alternative for
> UNIX or multiplatform development.
>
> >Andrew noted, Java is nice, but most people have been there/done that (I
> >remember the amazing amount of hype it got years ago), and it still isn't
> >fast enough for most (me included from what I saw of it less than a year
> >back).
> >
> That does depend on what you're doing.  In the end run of things, C#
> will only be fast enough by using
> native code.  Java can do that too, its just a deliberate pain in the
> butt.
>
> >The Java compilers got me excited, but it never seemed that the
> >language really caught on to supplant C/C++, past the Corporate zone with
> >Servlets.
> >
> You MUST be on a different planet than I am on.  I have seen Java take a
> huge wack at C++ over the past
> few years.  While don't get me wrong, there are no jobs ;-), I read
> recently that the number of Java jobs equals the number
> of C++, PERL, PHP, etc combined.  And C# and VB.NET were just a handful.
>
> > I think I big reason for this was Sun's refusal to give power over
> >the language up to an independent standards committee.
> >
> I believe that at the time it was the right decision.  Now its part of
> an ill-conceived business plan to make money of off
> "enterprise" software via a cooperation by an oligarchy of industry
> powers.  This has been opened up to some degree in
> that "J2EE" reference implementations are now able to be implemented and
> the required Test Compatibility Kit will be made
> available to the successful projects.  (It seems it may be largely up to
> the Apache Software Foundation on which projects those
> are, but that will probably be relatively fair anyhow)
>
> >C# might be the same
> >deal, and MS hovering over it scares the heck out of me, but at the same
> >time DotGNU and Mono intrigue me for this same reason.
> >
> >
> No dude.  C# will be worse.  Sun made the Java platform run well on
> Windows.  Aside from GUI programming, the WORA concept works relatively
> well.
>
> The main performance problems that C# will solve is easy use of native
> code (read: code that will only run on one platform), and lightweight
> types (typedefs).  Check out "D"  (www.opend.org & www.digitalmars.com/d).
>
> Full disclosure: I'm the secretary and speaker coordiantor for the Java
> User's Group.  Although I frequently butt heads with folks over my beef
> with many of the Java APIs.  (in particular I regard Applets, JSPs and
> EJBs as bad things)  In general, Java is good business.  (except right
> now:  real estate is good business)
>
> -Andy
>
> >We'll see what turns out,
> >
> >Robby
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <acoliver at apache.org>
> >To: <trilug at trilug.org>
> >Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 10:25 PM
> >Subject: Re: [TriLUG] C# and .NET
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>I liked what Sam said best:
> >>
> >>"If you want to write one program for 7 different platforms, use Java.
> >> If you want to write a program for 1 platform
> >>using 7 different language, use .NET"
> >>
> >>Sam while he gave a very nice technical analysis of .NET and pointed out
> >>advantages over Java, in the end he said he
> >>still does all his work (minus what he must do for his role as ECMA
> >>convener for the .NET reference committee) in Java and has no plans to
> >>switch to C#.
> >>
> >>Still, I'm not satisfied with Java for many reasons.  For one it has yet
> >>to achieve its perforamance promises (yes I know what Sun's benchmarks
> >>say, but I assure you they are BS).  Ultimately I find my bleeding edge
> >>flirtation will go towards:
> >>
> >>http://www.opend.org - "D"
> >>
> >>-Andy
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>>However, the Mono and dotGNU attempts to build
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>portable C# compilers and .NET frameworks sounds very exciting to me.
I
> >>>>think Microsoft, as usual, might try to be a big pain in the behind
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >over
> >
> >
> >>>>control of the specs/framework and will try to make the lives of the
> >>>>people
> >>>>working on this open software alternative very difficult. This keeps
> >>>>me wary
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>><BLATANT_JAVA_PLUG>
> >>>Why bother...do you have something against Java (or Sun)?
> >>>There are only a few minor differences between the syntax of
> >>>Java and C#...Java has a mature market and lots of _great_
> >>>developer tools...including open source implementations of
> >>>JVMs, appservers, IDEs and a wide variety of development
> >>>frameworks, utilities and class libaries.
> >>>
> >>>Obviously, I'm a Java developer...so I'm more than a little
> >>>biased...but why re-invent all the wheels?
> >>>
> >>>Despite some bad press, Sun has been very cooperative with
> >>>open-source...especially of late.  Cooperation with open
> >>>source groups is unthinkable from Microsoft.
> >>></BLATANT_JAVA_PLUG>
> >>>
> >>>*********************************
> >>>Chris Merrill
> >>>cmerrill at nc.rr.com
> >>>*********************************
> >>>
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> >>>
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >
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