OT: flame on (was Re: [TriLUG] Debian Bigots)

Mon Jul 29 21:09:04 EDT 2002

Andy,

My opinion of the installation: Fast as your little CDROM can crank out the
bytes.  A default setup is pretty straightforward and can get you on the air
in no time.  Setting up SMTP is also straightforward, provided you have
someone handling DNS for you or you have a bit of skill with DNS on your
own.  Exchange limits what you can do, and it has a graphic installer.  The
graphic installer makes it simple for any old person to survey all the
options necessary for a basic mail system to function.

This is one of the great strengths of MS in my mind, the placement of all
the foundation options in graphic panels.  It allows you to quickly survey
your playing field and make choices based on context.  Further, most
installation routines designed on the Windows platform allow you to move
forward and backward linearly in the process in case you second-guess
yourself later.
This graphic installer method is something I'd love to see in the Linux
realm, and is mostly technique.  Red Hat's graphic installer shares this
sort of "here are your options in plain sight" design and has made it a
treat to install.

I don't know why it takes 6 months less than to set up a Trilug server.
Chances are thats part "too many cooks in the kitchen" and no one with
sufficient time and motivation overlap to do it.  Since I'm not involved in
it (and thus have NO idea what I'm talking about,) I'll leave it at that.

On the other hand, as I said in my last post, Exchange may install quickly
and run in a basic environment - but it takes far more than this to make
that machine stable over the long term, and secure.  I believe this is true
for any mail server package, perhaps less so than others.  I've personally
never dealt with an "appliance like" mail server, a-la Tivo, where you plug
it in, make a couple of choices and let it run until the drive bearings
seize up with age.

As an aside, I'm so desperate to get away from Microsoft code in my own
personal works, that I'm willing to spend a lot of time learning how to
manage a simple workstation over the long term.  Since I don't have a role
as a sysadmin in a Linux shop, I'll be content to tune and optimize a simple
computer with RedHat 7.2.  That sort of familiarity is what I most want to
get out of my involvement with Trilug, and perhaps I can teach my girlfriend
what I learn.

-b-

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <acoliver at apache.org>
To: <trilug at trilug.org>
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: OT: flame on (was Re: [TriLUG] Debian Bigots)

> So what is your opinion of the installation?  Why does it take 6 months
> less than a Linux based mail server
> to set up?  (making reference to the trilug mail server saga)
>
> -Andy
>
> William W. Ward wrote:
>
> >Andrew -
> >
> >As speaking from the point of a current Exchange administrator, while it
may
> >take a few minutes to set up (and a few minutes more to realize your SMTP
> >relay is hanging open like the fly on your pants,) it will take years off
> >you life in ongoing maintenance.
> >
> >I like Exchange for a number of reasons, the client software integrates
> >several nice functions (contacts, shared calendar, etc.) and the server
is
> >fairly straightforward to manage if its left by itself.  In an enterprise
> >environment with heavy loads, it gets tricky.
> >
> >This may also be true for Sendmail in larger installs, but how many times
> >has Sendmail's mail handler bombed due to the content of a message it was
> >handling?  We've experienced cases where too many Remote Procedure Call
> >threads were allocated for dial-up modem users (they tend to hold RPC
pipes
> >open for long periods of time, and there were a limited number of pipes
that
> >could be allocated in that version of Exchange, fixed later,) which
blocked
> >new connections.  We've had a myriad of other issues and even escalated
> >things to the point where we received an apology letter from the top dogs
at
> >MS.
> >
> >In short, the lure of MS is the cheap cost of hardware and the low entry
> >barrier for administrators, but the hidden price is man hours and
downtime.
> >
> >One last point - a large part of the problem with MS's reputation isn't
> >always the quality of its software code, but the inadequacy of the
> >administrators implementing and administering these systems.  Because of
the
> >easy entry to the field, many of the administrators do not get proper
> >training, a lot of the pitfalls we've experienced would have been avoided
if
> >we'd had better training.  Those pitfalls include transaction log volumes
> >filling up and halting the services, inadequate monitoring of these
systems
> >(which would alert one to the disk space shortage,) and non-existent user
> >training.
> >
> >So, Exchange has come a long way, and as long as you sit on top of it to
> >ensure it doesn't spool out of disk space when a mail loop occurs (the
sort
> >of loop caused by autoresponders on both ends,) it will probably be just
> >fine.  Course, the client-end is another issue.  Patch those bad boys or
> >suffer the wrath of script fu!
> >
> >-b-
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <acoliver at apache.org>
> >To: <trilug at trilug.org>
> >Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:47 AM
> >Subject: Re: OT: flame on (was Re: [TriLUG] Debian Bigots)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>Man I feel all the love.  Now can we all start trying to increase the
> >>signal on this conversation and turn it back
> >>towards Linux?  I'd like to have an in depth conversation about mail
> >>servers (it apparently takes at least 6 months
> >>to set one up on linux).
> >>
> >>I understand Microsoft Exchange can be set up "securely" in a few
> >>minutes.  How odd it takes 6 months to set up
> >>whatever-mail-service-we-are-planning-to-use on linux ;-)  Is that why
> >>people choose exchange on M$ over X on linux?  Because of all that time
> >>it takes to set it up?
> >>
> >>I'd like to understand a little more as to why.  I'm freeing up for time
> >>shortly and I'm planning to set my own mail server up so that I can have
> >>email thats at least as reliable as the postal service again (although
> >>strangely I've started receiving mine today but it might be a fluke).
> >>
> >>-Andy
> >>
> >>Lisa Lorenzin wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>john davis wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>Let me see, you are the pasty white guy who whines about eating
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >veggies
> >
> >
> >>>>>>cooked on a grill which had previously cooked meat.  Like your
opinion
> >>>>>>matters.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>what tanner actually wrote, from the archived article that you quoted:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I can also bring my table top grill if necessary.  If I'm the
> >>>>only vegetarian there, though, I can make do with just a small
> >>>>part of the grill (which I understand has had meat cooked on
> >>>>it before, but would ask to not have meat cooked on
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>"not eating veggies cooked on a grill which had previously cooked meat"
> >>>!= "not to have meat cooked on that small part that day, at least until
> >>>
> >>>
> >my
> >
> >
> >>>vege stuff was cooked)."
> >>>
> >>>i suggest you take your own advice:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Yeah don't say anything if you don't know what you are talking about.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>my point:
> >>>
> >>>if you're going to be a pedantic a**hole, you'd better be Right, 'cause
> >>>there are plenty of other pedantic a**holes out here who will see your
> >>>nitpicking and raise you same.
> >>>
> >>>lisa
> >>>
> >>>ps.  and yes, kevin, i should know better than to feed the troll.  but
> >>>it's monday.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>TriLUG mailing list
> >>    http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug
> >>TriLUG Organizational FAQ:
> >>    http://www.trilug.org/~lovelace/faq/TriLUG-faq.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >TriLUG mailing list
> >    http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug
> >TriLUG Organizational FAQ:
> >    http://www.trilug.org/~lovelace/faq/TriLUG-faq.html
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TriLUG mailing list
>     http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug
> TriLUG Organizational FAQ:
>     http://www.trilug.org/~lovelace/faq/TriLUG-faq.html
>
>
>