[TriLUG] Flaking PSU?

Jim Ray jim at neuse.net
Wed Jun 21 11:15:12 EDT 2006

ibm and hp have the 15k options.  not dell.


i'd rather just tell someone you gonna hafta pay $4k for a decent server 
instead of every little thing being an option that always jacks up the 
price way beyond dell's advertised base model.



Jim Ray, President
Neuse River Network, Inc.

tel: 919-838-1672 x111

Ask about our Clean Technologies.  Established in the Carolinas 1997.

kevin at flanagannc.net wrote:
> It's no secret that I don't have a lot of love for Dell, but I'm fairly
> sure that you can get 15K RPM disks if you want to in your Dell system.
> That's how most vendors work.
> Faster rotation isn't always a performance gain, if your system is I/O
> bound, that that will help, but even then, not always.  If you have a lot
> of data, and need disk performance you are better off spending your dough
> on more spindles to dedicate, and more channels.  IDE will never do a good
> job for I/O heavy apps, just not in the design.
> Other times you have memory bound apps that don't use the disk much.
> Still other times you have CPU bound apps that don't use disks much.
> Other considerations include,
>  - CPU to RAM transfers
>  - I/O bus, can you get that data from the disk controller to the
> processor fast enough?
>  - PCI,PCE, or PCIX controllers, are they fast enough?
> The big point here is that there are a LOT of things, if you want a
> general purpose server that'll do anything you won't get one that will do
> everything, at least without spending a LOT of money.
> As for service, that's often a factor of the size of the business.  I can
> get a replacement disk very quickly. I had to call HP for one a while
> back.  I called at 4PM, spent about 5 minutes on the phone, when I came in
> at 8 AM the next day, the new drive was on my desk.  All hot swap, the
> users never would have known.
> Lots to consider......
> Kevin
>> it is no skin off my nose that dell likes intel.  dell just happens to
>> use inferior quality hard drives that run at 10,000 rpm instead of
>> 15,000 rpm hot swap scsi screamers.  there's a direct correlation
>> between hard drive rpm and speed of server.  you pay a premium to get
>> the speed yet get pay back every day when employees get their work done
>> faster.
>> dell's service really blows grits when you have to spend 30 minutes on
>> the phone explaining that the hard disk needs replacement when you hear
>> ker chunka chunk chunk noises.  then, you have to wait 3 days to get the
>> replacement part if you are still inside the whopping 90 day warranty.
>> i like our n3 server because a little lit goes off and a beeper sounds
>> to let you know the hot spare is automatically kicking in.  me thinks
>> the manufacturer has a 5 year warranty as well.
>> of course, there are those that want to go straight to dell.  don't pass
>> go.  don't collect $200.
>> regards,
>> jim
>> Jim Ray, President
>> Neuse River Network, Inc.
>> tel: 919-838-1672 x111
>> http://www.Neuse.Net
>> Ask about our Clean Technologies.  Established in the Carolinas 1997.
>> Matthew Lavigne wrote:
>>> Jim,
>>> You do realize that with the exception of any of the alienware systems
>>> or  AMD systems that Dell may sell, Dell is firmly an Intel shop.
>>> Meaning that the motherboards that they sell are Intel reference design
>>> and are generally the board that Intel recommends to the vendors to
>>> use.  As far as cheap, my guess is if you buy any GigByte boards then
>>> you are most likely using what Dell is (as the last time that I checked
>>> that was who they were using to build the Intel reference boards for
>>> them).
>>> Just a point of clarification.
>>> Matthew
>>> Soon to be in New York looking for a new LUG.
>>> Jim Ray wrote:
>>>> my argument for folks spending $4000+ for a real server is as follows.
>>>> here is the one we sell that has the necessary hardware under the hood
>>>> for an entry level small business running linux or winders:
>>>> http://www.neuse.net/server
>>>> the first point brings up the insurance argument.  do you have
>>>> insurance for your business?  of course, you do.  everyone does (or at
>>>> least should).  so, the RAID5 with hot spare, redundant power supplies
>>>> and ECC memory insure risk of downtime and data loss.
>>>> as for optiplex vs dimension, i stay away from both and am partial to
>>>> intel motherboards because i've been working with their chips since
>>>> 1981 when the SDK85 with a whopping 8085A processor came out.  i don't
>>>> care who stamps their name on the front.  dell likes cheap and fast.
>>>> i like local and high quality.  fact of the matter is that i can get
>>>> local and high quality cheaper than dell as well.
>>>> if they've got budget for the expensive UPS, they've got budget for a
>>>> real server.
>>>> just my $0.02.
>>>> hth,
>>>> jim
>>>> Jim Ray, President
>>>> Neuse River Network, Inc.
>>>> tel: 919-838-1672 x111
>>>> http://www.Neuse.Net
>>>> Ask about our Clean Technologies.  Established in the Carolinas 1997.
>>>> Brian Henning wrote:
>>>>> That's fair, and I'll answer it honestly.
>>>>> Partly, it's due to my inexperience and shortcomings as a
>>>>> salesperson.  At
>>>>> this point, I'm not very good at making a convincing argument for a
>>>>> $3,000
>>>>> machine that, on the surface, appears to do no more than a
>>>>> similarly-spec'ed
>>>>> $500 machine.  (Yes.  What I described is essentially a desktop-grade
>>>>> machine in a server case.)
>>>>> The second factor is the person to whom I have to make the sale.  In
>>>>> this
>>>>> particular company, the concept of opportunity cost is almost
>>>>> unknown.  If I
>>>>> spend $500 on parts, and yet end up devoting 100 hours out of the
>>>>> next year
>>>>> to direct service of said parts, he still feels like he's come out
>>>>> ahead.
>>>>> (and in fact, at my current pay scale, compared to a $3,000 capital
>>>>> investment, for those numbers he does come out quite a bit ahead,
>>>>> opportunity cost notwithstanding).  In this company, for example, we
>>>>> buy
>>>>> Dimensions instead of Optiplexes except in the case of incentive
>>>>> programs
>>>>> such as UPS' Customer Technology Program.  This company would rather
>>>>> spend
>>>>> two weeks to a month every year cyclically creating new QuickBooks
>>>>> company
>>>>> files and jumping through the hoops necessary to carry critical data
>>>>> over
>>>>> (as well as creating the headaches of tracking previous transactions)
>>>>> than
>>>>> put down the up-front cost of a financial system that can better
>>>>> handle the
>>>>> stress of a business which lives largely in the retail market (where
>>>>> we can
>>>>> easily have a customer list that grows by 15,000 in a year).
>>>>> Gradually the mentality of the company is changing.  We now have a
>>>>> proper
>>>>> 2500VA UPS system in our network closet, rather than the two or three
>>>>> desktop UPSes that used to live in there.  But the closet (which now
>>>>> houses
>>>>> six computers, the UPS, and our PBX equipment) is still being
>>>>> (ineffectively) cooled by a mildew-filled sputtery 20-year-old
>>>>> window-unit
>>>>> air conditioner, despite my continuing suggestions that the A/C can't
>>>>> keep
>>>>> up with the heat output of the equipment.  It's a smallish company,
>>>>> with a
>>>>> strongly-entrenched small-company mentality.
>>>>> So there's the long answer.  The short answer is "it's what makes the
>>>>> boss
>>>>> happy right now."
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> ~B
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: trilug-bounces at trilug.org [mailto:trilug-bounces at trilug.org]On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Kevin Flanagan
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 7:09 PM
>>>>>> To: Triangle Linux Users Group discussion list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [TriLUG] Flaking PSU?
>>>>>> So,
>>>>>>     I've got to ask the question, if you wanted a server, why didn't
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> buy one. I don't see anything that you are doing in the system you
>>>>>> listed out that couldn't be done in a desktop.  If you pay the
>>>>>> premium
>>>>>> you get quality and service.  If you add up all of the parts, and
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> time, will you really end up saving dough over buying a "name
>>>>>> brand" server?
>>>>>> Just my $.02
>>>>>>     Kevin
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