$ date Wed Feb 12 20:11:03 EST 2003 privet, sweeper Tribot: sweeper is MIke Broome Tribot: no, sweeper is Mike Broome okay, jeremyp. hi there when are we meant to start this meeting? ok, i've got a topic: >>BANG<< >>BANG<< lets call this meeting to order why does my ntp daemon stop working every few days? and lose the time? cerient: tempora fugits? SinnerP: ??? man, Sinner's on a roll greets cerient: a server? Or a computer that reboots, like a laptop or dual-boot ? Put a cron job in to make sure it's running every hour sholton: hey.. what's your real name? anything in the logs about it exiting? server, never reboots Steve Holton I've seen NTP stop when the time values vary too much during one session Tribot: sholton is Steve Holton i could cron it but why is it necessary? hey, this is lisa, but just for second. the topic for tonight was supposed to be discussing cerient: time disapears sinner's update of the syllabus, but since i didn't get the notes SinnerP: thanks :-) typed up and sent out, that wasn't obvious. mea culpa. i still think it's a good topic! Lisa, yeah , +1 sweeper: no prob i'm slammed at work this week - will try to get the notes in ASAP. (they're at my desk, which i haven't seen in 4 days because i've been trapped in our datacenter. we now return you to your regularly scheduled mike... * SinnerP has uploaded proposed and all syllabus. Check http://www.trilug.org/~sinner/ Are you all there? Were reading the sylb Yeah, it needs to say the meetings are Wed. from 8pm to 10pm though can't talk, reading jeremyp: ok SinnerP: #4 can remove linuxconf, but substitute overview of the redhat-config-* tools We didn't do the 'Conscripting of "volunteers" to lead each session.' part yet, so I assume we're gonna figure that out tonight ? jeremyp: yessir A lot of folks are using webmin does the RHCE cover that? No Red Hat does not recognize the existence of webmin (NIH syndrome) JonC: AFAIK, webmin is out of RedHat distros. too much of a crutch anyway (webmin) jeremyp: define NIH sundrome hi there... howdy ovrclokd i'll volunteer to lead the first session (hardware) Interesting... I set up most of clients with webmin type services this is lisa - mike got tired of me shoulder-surfing.. :) Not-Invented-Here syndrome. The desire to reinvent the wheel instead of modifying others programs Tribot: ovrclokd is Lisa Lorenzin i like webmin too, but it ain't gonna help you pass the test Nothing wrong with webmin, I was just pointing out why it's not relevant for RHCE JonC: me too thaks jeremyp we may need to update the class format. Currently we have some instructions and some labs. We probably need to redefine this as labs when we meet, instruction on IRC. sholton: truw true exit * ovrclokd blushes oops, wrong window... sholton: my understanding is that all of the 'meetings' on the list refer to in-person meetings, and that the IRC meetings are on the in-between weeks, right? ovrclokd: no problem, we don't want you quitting anyway :) has anyone (the last group?) used this syllabus to take and/or pass the RHCE? * SinnerP has just uploaded some changes to the page do we know if it tracks well with the actual test? I know there's RHCE info at http://www.redhat.com/training/rhce/courses/, but I haven't looked at it much, yet best we can know is if it tracks well with the published recommendations. 'k. anybody know that? (I don't :) but I'll agree it would be nice to have something better than just "matches the web page..." I presented a pritned page on kick-off meeting let's review it http://www.redhat.com/training/rhce/courses/rhce_content.html and http://www.redhat.com/training/rhce/courses/rh300_prereq.html Yeah that's the important page. That and the "RH300 prereq" page at .. err, never mind SinnerP is too fast for me! he cheats... not really I type fast ...w/o spell checker now, we're talkin'. these look like what I had in mind. it looks like the rhce_content is more like a syllabus Should we just go down the list of the rhce_content page? the rhce_prereq is more like "things to know before medling in the affair of BOFHs" JonC: +1 JonC: well the pages we did *ARE* based on that outline Not a coincidence :) What kind of question could they ask about "Hardware compatibility" but not exactly true 'k. so it sounds like we are, in fact, on the right track. it's just a metter of splitting things up into classes and labs ... oh and the learning .. and we're go to go Units 1 and 3 can go together. Reall Really as well as the Software RAID Configuration in Unit 4 No. I think Unit 1 is important for its coverage of devices JonC: probably things like "don't expect winmodems to work easily" etc... jeremyp: Ahh good point most probably, "how do we know if a device is suported?" look on RH HW database i'll volunteer to lead the lab to cover the hardware/installation stuff and "expect really really new hardware to not being 100% supported" Hypothetical: it works under windows, you want to move it over to RH where do you look for IO and IRQ settings SinnerP: yeah but the HW database is WAY out of date so I dunno the real-world validity of that answer or ide raid gmontag: yeah RAID should be part of install class, as they are very tied together SinnerP: he meant IDE raid hardware like Promise cards jeremyp: OK. LEt's say, then, "see kernel doc" AFAIK, they are supported. OR aren't they? Yeah software raid is part of isntallation. I have a question -- is there anyone here who's never done a Red Hat Linux installation ? SinnerP: limited support IIRC, maybe it's improved. But probably not supported at a Red Hat level ...REd Hat 8.0 instalaltion on x86 Hardware... How about CPU and SMP support. I've never installed RH8.0 on an SMP server. Anything special aobut that? (can't install RHL 8 anywhere *but* x86, fyi) JonC: not really, other than you need an SMP kernel. Should be auto-detected. JonC: nothing special, assuming the second cpu is detected. the bootloader will give two kernel options, UP and SMP It will install both UP and SMP kernels IIRC (called "linux" and "linux-up") JonC: I installed on a dual-Pentium (P90 .. yeah, it's ancient) and didn't have to do anything to get SMP from the start now UPGRADING from one cpu to two, that would be interesting... JonC: SMP "just works" What do you get when you do a "top" command But back to the question, can we assume that everyone has done a basic Red Hat Linux installation? cerient: ...but not likely to be on the test... So we all understand the general process? Or not ? Anything special in the /proc from smp? cerient: that's just an upgrade to an SMP kernel, right? JonC: usage on CPUs 0 and 1 JonC: /proc/cpuinfo JonC: nothing wierd i have a dualie here at my place, but it's too big and heavy to move to n raleigh sweeper: yes, all you need is to install an SMP kernel, then check /proc/cpuinfo to make sure it works basic, yes. but it's a critical skill (1/3 of test) so we should study it well. sholton1: again, what is a 1/3 of the test? sholton1: understood. does the test cover http ftp nfs installs? lsc21: it's a good thing to know lsc21: probably I've heard rumours that it is heavy on kickstart installing RHL is 1/3 of the test. If you fudge that, it's game over. i'm working on a customer project right now that involved kickstart, so i should be pretty good at it in a couple of weeks JonC: kickstart is not that difficult to use If you can install well (quickly) you save time: more time for other stuff. sholton1: ok. thanks In fact someone who took the test told me that I had better know everything there is to know about Kickstart JonC: there's a lot of undocumented stuff on kickstart although reading a kickstart file is easy kinda hard to study undocumented stuff isn't it :-) Kickstart is easy... look in /root/anaconda-ks.cfg to see a KS file based on your just-completed normal installation cerient: yes. that's why I love/hate jeremy cerient: falls in the realm of philosophy Also there's a graphical redhat-config-kickstart (or something similar) that file has commented out the part about disk aprtitioning Here's another clue about the test. DON'T WORRY ABOUT UNDOCUMENTED STUFF! kickstart could be used as a core competency: not just "can you install apache" but "can you kickstart to an apache..." 2 birds, 1 stone jeremyp: that utility only works from an already working RedHat system witha a GUI The official red hat linux documentation has got to be a great study guide. There's no way there will be "undocumented" stuff exactly the undocumented stuff are extra features, not needed in 99% of install acses $45 well spent from redhat.com to get the printed version jeremyp: that's the cost of boxed RH 8.0? WELL I'M GONNA COVER KICKSTART WHETHER OR NOT YOU UNGRATEFUL BASTARDS WANT IT!!! hehehe ahhhhhhhhhh, i feel better I've also heard rumour that there is stuff on the test that you can only learn via real world ... ie undocumented. SinnerP: no, the cost of the documentation. The boxed set only includes the install guide, not the full docs I guess that means you volunteer? jeremyp: can you gfet the doc alone? JonC: not undocumented per se. Maybe stuff not directly on the outline that's real world, but I'll bet it's in those docs SinnerP: yes, that's the $45 I was talking about like reading log files ok jeremyp i have box sets of rh72 and 73 professional, with books Oh, and yeah the professional version includes the full docs You know, there's a joke about undocumented: "What do you mean undocumented? it's OPEN SOURCE"... cerient: how good are you into raid and LVM stuff? JonC: re: real-world stuff on the test, that's certainly the case from the RHCT that I took. Without violating NDA, I'll say that the folks who didn't have real-world failed on the very first exercise New Hardware Detection - do you think it's simply kudzu or is this a favorite for the "fix the broken server" part SinnerP: good but not great JonC: I'll bet that means dealing with kudzu mostly JonC: new hardware: kudzu + know it's active + use isapnp tools (maybe) cerient: ok. rememeber that I've been qa guy at rhl, if you need help I'll have to brush up on my ISA.. SinnerP: gracias amigo JonC: me too. also, know about lspci, lsmod, modprobe and such Okay, but back to tonight's agenda. Jason is going to lead meeting 2, hw and isntallation. RAID and LVM are pretty easy (at least coming from the Solaris side of unix) JonC: have you dealt with LVM on RG 8.0? RH 8.0 I'd say let's move printing to meeting 4 (maybe, though meeting 4 looks a bit heavy). I'll volunteer to lead meeting 4. I did for a contract job, but I've also used it in earlier versions (had to muck with the kernel) SinnerP, JonC : let's stay on tonight's agenda for a little while, please ? ok jeremyp so who is getting Class One? Class one already happenned cerient seems to be voluntieering looks like me jeremyp: OK. Meeting 2 then cerient: check out my page for a guide (last year's guide) there's an awful lot of bullets there. each one could be a lesson. sholton1: true but we've got to be fast-paced sholton1: is not that bad. really i'll fly thru my material so fast you won't even have time to write it down. or understand it. cerient: what do you think for Meeting 2 use Units 1 & 3 + Software RAID? sholton1: specially if we have the presentation on-line 2 days before the meeting SinnerP: that sounds good to me thus, we could break apart meeting 5 into 2 meetings (is mwaay more meaty) SinnerP: yeah, sounds good to me sholton1: in previous RHCE classes, install &hardware goes by pretty fast sholton1: at the meeting last week, we were discussing that - whether to have presentation on irc or in realtime Tribot: who is sholton1? no idea, sinnerp sholton1: i think the consensus was that realtime meetings would be presentation+lab, irc would be talking about questions / issues am i remembering correctly, guys? sholton1: try typing "/nick sholton" personally, i think having the presentation materials available ahead of time would make the realtime meetings go a lot faster... Tribot: who is sholton? well, sholton is Steve Holton but trying to present on irc involved a whole lotta typing (or cut-n-paste, even) ovrclokd: +1 from me. ovrclokd: mee too then, after the meetings, the IRC session will be for further q&a + discussion. Hopefully people will try things out on their own real-world systems in order to generate questions etc. sholton: what do you think? jeremyp: agreed - everyone should be trying to do some homework and trial & error outside of meetings so, meet-up is "watch me", the week after is "do it yourself", and IRC is "what about....?" sholton: realy, HW and install it ain't that bad. sholton: +1 sholton: that sounds about right. the weeks we get together and someone presents, there might be some hands on, but it'll mostly be "watch me". sholton: exactly. that way we get the chance to break it at home and then ask everybody about what we broke. :) so we only really need one system at the meet-ups. That's good. very sholton: the other weeks when we don't get together, we'll be trying on our own, and have an IRC meeting to discuss and ask ovrclokd: well put. and, maybe, change the syllabus, as needed ovrclokd: I know who I'll be asking first ;) to suit us sweeper: don't you mean, you know who *i'll* be asking first? ;) okay so the general plan is then to do hw & installation next Wed, Feb 19th Who's running the 19th meeting? and configuration & administration on Wed, March 5th ? sholton: Jason Tower aka cerient k i'm down with that [OT] irc question - what does "nick1 requested CTCP VERSION from nick2" mean? jeremyp: OK, we'll work on the details of next presencial meeting after cerient's one sweeper: means soemone sent you a "client-to-client protocol" message asking what irc client version you're using sweeper: someone is asking you something, at protoocl level SinnerP: fine; I volunteered for the config & admin meeting FYI cool jeremyp: do I need to answer? or does the client do that for me? jeremyp: and I assume that you are Jeremy Porter SinnerP: Portzer Tribot: who is jeremyp rumour has it jeremyp is Jeremy Portzer, Trilug Treasurer (mailto:jeremyp@pobox.com) jeremyp: and I assume that you are Jeremy Portzer treasurer? mmm,good sweeper: the client probably did it for you, though you can block it sweeper: your client answers auto,and let's you know with that info message SoSinnerP: obviously you've never been one... sweeper: try soemthing like "/ctcp ovrclokd VERSION" to see an example jeremyp: good client :) thanks for the recomendation sholton: I mean, we can ask him for a loan SinnerP: you can ask... anyway anyone have any special requests for next week's session? * SinnerP remembers something about getting at EclecticLAN by 7:30, to get a subway sandwich :) cerient: get 2 HDDs and do some raid / lvm and some ftp/nfs installs You can do pretend RAID or LVM with multiple partitions on one HDD * sweeper remembers something about chinese rather than subway, but 7:30 sounds right i can probably scare up a couple of 2gb disks But we really need two computers to do an NFS or FTP install The chinese is good chinese? really? mmm yum I have 2 computers here and i'll bring a second workstation Yeah, +1 for chinese, +0 for subway jeremyp: it can be done with one... I can bring a light-weight PC gmontag: yeah but your w/s suck as far as linux is concerned :-) um, duh, we can use a public mirror (or trilug) for teh ftp/http install jeremyp: a little slow, that's why i brought a server the first time cerient: gotcha. Did you rsync the tree to that server? I can set up a nfs server on the lightweight PC (10 GB hdd) I have 2 older boxes here run linux good I'll try to bring my own box, but no networking. jeremyp: no, but i copied the CD contents to the HD cerient: good enough jeremyp: did you say at the last meeting that you'd log thes irc sessions and webify 'em? ready for nfs/ftp/http installation sweeper: I think I forgot to tell irssi to log this, oops I'm kinda saving them * SinnerP is kinda saving a logfile(s) SinnerP: thanks. good point jeremyp. for the next meeting, if you want to get food before the meeting, please show up early and be fed and ready to go at 8pm... rock is being nice and letting us come early - we may as well take full advantage of it. :) jeremyp: I have everything from when I signed on it the scrollback. if I can just pry it lose ... i'll be there early fer sher * jeremyp agress with ovrclokd, let's meet for chinese at 7:15 or earlier if you want to do that sweeper: I do too, I just don't know if there's a command to save the scrollback history. There probably is. do they take orders to go by phone? SinnerP: I'm sure they do. Pretty much all chinese places do. yes phone is 518-1063 do they have a awebsite? to check out the menu All of these strip-mall chinese places have pretty much the same menu :) lovelace: hi there! :) You can probably just find the menu printer company's web site and use that :) which is to say, anything that's not "just like every place else" won't be on the menu anyway. i have a capture of the whole thing. will put it up off my pages. sinnerp, do you mind if i link your new syllabus there, too? ovrclokd: no prob sholton: right, sometimes they have special things, but that's the "chinese speakers" menu :) ovrclokd: I'll re-do the syllabus a little more, to coverr all the http://www.redhat.com/training/rhce/courses/rhce_content.html things jeremyp: I've never cracked that encryption... sinnerp: no problem - i wasn't going to grab the html, just put a link to it. i'm going to replace jeremyp: I can order beer in chinese, as well as chopsticks ovrclokd: even better my current page, since it has the old syllabus, with an info page about when/where the meetings and irc chats are, SinnerP: and remember how we re-numbered the first few meetings? Meeting 2 = all hw & installation, meeting 3 = configuration & admin. name is handy chinese but I have never found a webpage with menu how the whole thing is organized, what we're doing for food, and a link to your syllabus... ovrclokd: , jeremyp: OK. I'll do that one more question. any interest in trying to get / borrow a videocamera and tape the realtime sesssions? too much distraction. it'd make a good library, and be helpful for people who have to miss... but could be more bother than it's worth. thoughts? ovrclokd: are you trying to involve lovelace into this? I'm not terribly excited about that.. too much trouble too much trouble sinnerp: yeah, but i was trying to be subtle about it. :) +1 too much trouble I look too fat on camera okay, just a thought. Think how much of las meeting was spent trying to get n/w running, and we're all geeks. none of us is a speilburg. I have a camera here tribot, who is gmontag? gmontag: don't encourage her! hmmm... gmontag is Rock Roskam. gmontag: that's right * ovrclokd is incorrigible ;) :) gmontag: do you have a projector or large screen or something, so that the computer doing the presentation/demo can be seen by all? No would like one mike and i have to sign off soon. anything else exciting / critical before we go? alternately, we could VNCclient to a bunch od ws' I thinks that's almost it waut! jeremyp: +1. I was thinking last meeting that an InFocus thingy would be great for this sholton: +1 wait! what about getting a NIC each one? for LTSP purposes? walt! sinnerp: ? sholton: +1 SinnerP: um, haven't we covered that ? Tribot: who is walt? sweeper: no idea :) I can install Tight VNC for windows s/walt/wait gmontag: that's true woot! no need, use the web interface still working on Network cards doh! the broadcom cards fully support pxe * SinnerP never realizes that there really is some useful software for Win32... remember, vnc only works on a running system -1 on the whole LTSP stuff. VNC or nothing will be fine. won't have that during the install process Let's keep the production equipment running for Rock, please. * ovrclokd agrees with jeremyp cerient: we just need to run WinVNC for classes *after* install is completed we're all friends. we can crowd around. as long as everybody remembers deodorant, we'll be fine... ovrclokd: Hey. running a vncserver is trivial, i'll handle that * lovelace remembers to look back into the channel we can all peak over the shoulder on install class We agreed that the labs would be for demo - not hands on. So no need for LTSP. but lots of fun urpmi deodorant So to answer Lisa's question, anything else that needs to be figured out right now? Any volunteers for future sessions? I have Axe comming in I guess not JonC: agreed that LTSP is fun and I want to do it sometime, but not here/now jeremyp voluntiered for 3rd one (printing config and stff) next sessions, let's do it after the next one, on IRC sholton will wait in reserve to fill in (where others fear to tread...) so The best way to "learn" is to "teach" we have agreed on topic for Meeting 2 JonC: ++ i can split standard networking service with somebody... cerient doing the HW & install & soft raid we will use VNC, *not* LTSP chinese/subway, if you are early/late that's a lot to cover in one evening. mike and i can take it, but might be good to try to split it out. then, IRC session, where Q/A bout install/HW + fill teachers for next sessions ovrclokd: I think we agreed that by consolidating the hw/install to one meeting, we were splitting the networking services into two ovrclokd: if it's too much, we can do a secnd session networking has to be two BTW