[TriLUG] C# and .NET

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Robby Dermody wrote:

>I guess with C# and the open source attention it's been getting, I was/am
>excited that it just might be the next good language to transition to. As
>
Have you really looked closely at C#?  IT *IS* Java--.  There is VERY 
little advantage over Java.
(lightweight types).  Mono is not quite baked yet.  But I'd certainly 
not discourage you from looking at C#.  
I would personally consider it a bad career move to bet my career on it, 
but I never was a bettin' man.
If you're not a Windows man, it is doubtful that the .NET platform will 
ever be up to snuff (period - ha ha) on
other platforms.  So I would not consider it a viable alternative for 
UNIX or multiplatform development.

>Andrew noted, Java is nice, but most people have been there/done that (I
>remember the amazing amount of hype it got years ago), and it still isn't
>fast enough for most (me included from what I saw of it less than a year
>back). 
>
That does depend on what you're doing.  In the end run of things, C# 
will only be fast enough by using
native code.  Java can do that too, its just a deliberate pain in the 
butt.  

>The Java compilers got me excited, but it never seemed that the
>language really caught on to supplant C/C++, past the Corporate zone with
>Servlets.
>
You MUST be on a different planet than I am on.  I have seen Java take a 
huge wack at C++ over the past
few years.  While don't get me wrong, there are no jobs ;-), I read 
recently that the number of Java jobs equals the number
of C++, PERL, PHP, etc combined.  And C# and VB.NET were just a handful.  

> I think I big reason for this was Sun's refusal to give power over
>the language up to an independent standards committee. 
>
I believe that at the time it was the right decision.  Now its part of 
an ill-conceived business plan to make money of off
"enterprise" software via a cooperation by an oligarchy of industry 
powers.  This has been opened up to some degree in
that "J2EE" reference implementations are now able to be implemented and 
the required Test Compatibility Kit will be made
available to the successful projects.  (It seems it may be largely up to 
the Apache Software Foundation on which projects those
are, but that will probably be relatively fair anyhow)

>C# might be the same
>deal, and MS hovering over it scares the heck out of me, but at the same
>time DotGNU and Mono intrigue me for this same reason.
>  
>
No dude.  C# will be worse.  Sun made the Java platform run well on 
Windows.  Aside from GUI programming, the WORA concept works relatively 
well.

The main performance problems that C# will solve is easy use of native 
code (read: code that will only run on one platform), and lightweight 
types (typedefs).  Check out "D"  (www.opend.org & www.digitalmars.com/d).

Full disclosure: I'm the secretary and speaker coordiantor for the Java 
User's Group.  Although I frequently butt heads with folks over my beef 
with many of the Java APIs.  (in particular I regard Applets, JSPs and 
EJBs as bad things)  In general, Java is good business.  (except right 
now:  real estate is good business)

-Andy

>We'll see what turns out,
>
>Robby
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <acoliver at apache.org>
>To: <trilug at trilug.org>
>Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 10:25 PM
>Subject: Re: [TriLUG] C# and .NET
>
>
>  
>
>>I liked what Sam said best:
>>
>>"If you want to write one program for 7 different platforms, use Java.
>> If you want to write a program for 1 platform
>>using 7 different language, use .NET"
>>
>>Sam while he gave a very nice technical analysis of .NET and pointed out
>>advantages over Java, in the end he said he
>>still does all his work (minus what he must do for his role as ECMA
>>convener for the .NET reference committee) in Java and has no plans to
>>switch to C#.
>>
>>Still, I'm not satisfied with Java for many reasons.  For one it has yet
>>to achieve its perforamance promises (yes I know what Sun's benchmarks
>>say, but I assure you they are BS).  Ultimately I find my bleeding edge
>>flirtation will go towards:
>>
>>http://www.opend.org - "D"
>>
>>-Andy
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>However, the Mono and dotGNU attempts to build
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>portable C# compilers and .NET frameworks sounds very exciting to me. I
>>>>think Microsoft, as usual, might try to be a big pain in the behind
>>>>        
>>>>
>over
>  
>
>>>>control of the specs/framework and will try to make the lives of the
>>>>people
>>>>working on this open software alternative very difficult. This keeps
>>>>me wary
>>>>        
>>>>
>>><BLATANT_JAVA_PLUG>
>>>Why bother...do you have something against Java (or Sun)?
>>>There are only a few minor differences between the syntax of
>>>Java and C#...Java has a mature market and lots of _great_
>>>developer tools...including open source implementations of
>>>JVMs, appservers, IDEs and a wide variety of development
>>>frameworks, utilities and class libaries.
>>>
>>>Obviously, I'm a Java developer...so I'm more than a little
>>>biased...but why re-invent all the wheels?
>>>
>>>Despite some bad press, Sun has been very cooperative with
>>>open-source...especially of late.  Cooperation with open
>>>source groups is unthinkable from Microsoft.
>>></BLATANT_JAVA_PLUG>
>>>
>>>*********************************
>>>Chris Merrill
>>>cmerrill at nc.rr.com
>>>*********************************
>>>
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>>
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