[TriLUG] OT: Developer Rates

Fri Apr 23 09:34:09 EDT 2004

IANAL either, but a couple of points:

- I believe RICO is different from price fixing; RICO is about organized
crime (although it's been misused against, e.g., anti-abortion
protesters).

- Price fixing is basically an antitrust issue, and at least in theory it
therefore has everything to do with the actor's market power. An actor or
group of actors who are essentially "price takers", meaning their pricing
decisions, alone or as a group, can't change the structure of the market
they're participating in, ought to be allowed to discuss pricing all they
want. Price fixing comes into play when one or a few market actors have
the ability to change the pricing structure by their (individual or
collective) decisions; to wit, Microsoft with Windows or Kodak with film
processing.

- Aaron's points remain right on target, of course, particularly that
there's going to be some DA who's going to waste his/her time on this.

Best,
A

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew J Perrin - http://www.unc.edu/~aperrin
Assistant Professor of Sociology, U of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
clists at perrin.socsci.unc.edu * andrew_perrin (at) unc.edu

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004, Aaron S. Joyner wrote:

> IANAL - use your own judgment or seek professional help if you are so
> inclined.  With that out of the way...
>
> In this case, it's going to come down to a criminal charge under the
> RICO act or some other criminal statute describing price fixing.  This
> of course assumes that a DA wants to prosecute you for it, because he
> believes you are in the wrong or stepping dangerously close to it.  Then
> it comes to a jury of your peers.  So the real question is, when
> presented to 12 anonymous random people, would you be willing to stand
> up and say "I wasn't doing anything wrong"?  If those people believe
> from the evidence at hand that your intentions are reasonable, you're
> probably in the clear.  On the other hand, if your text presents (to
> that jury) the appearance that you're attempting to "aim for" a price or
> coerce other people toward a price, that's dangerous ground.
>
> I believe the original advice of "don't discuss prices" is a rather
> reasonable knee-jerk response to any price / rate discussion.  It's
> best, especially in a text forum, to be very sure everyone is aware of
> what they are saying and the potential ramifications of it.  I'm sure
> there are plenty of examples of court cases made or broken by a
> statement taken out of context.  And as we're probably all aware, with
> out the human voice / inflection / tone information that's available in
> speech, things are much easier to mis-interpret.
>
> So in short, be cautious of what you say, but with due diligence you can
> safely and legally determine how to set your rates.  Although an
> auto-archived text forum monitored by hundreds of people may not be the
> best place to have that discussions if you are of the paranoid
> persuasion.  :)
>
> Aaron S. Joyner
>
>
> Jim Wright wrote:
>
> >"I want to believe that the law will be "intelligent""
> >
> >Ok, now were getting unreasonable.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: trilug-bounces at trilug.org [mailto:trilug-bounces at trilug.org] On
> >Behalf Of Destefanis, Pablo
> >Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:05 AM
> >To: Triangle Linux Users Group discussion list
> >Subject: RE: [TriLUG] OT: Developer Rates
> >
> >Wow, this is just unbelievable! So you can get with your mates and check
> >if
> >you're ripping off someone or losing money on a job?
> >
> >I want to believe that the law will be "intelligent" enough to tell the
> >difference between someone asking around because he's not sure about the
> >price he should ask from two or more companies (with enough power to
> >control
> >part of a market) screwing up a lot of people... Mmmmhhhh. I don't know
> >- I
> >guess I maybe wrong.
> >
> >Still, I don't see why shouldn't be some guidelines for rates (as you'll
> >find in many industries). You're not ripping off anyone, actually, you
> >may
> >be preventing people to be ripped off. The wrong assumption here is that
> >this person was going to charge LESS than "normal rates", but what if he
> >was
> >going to charge double? Is he also conspiring to fix prices when his
> >quesiton results in a lower price for his client?
> >
> >Maybe the honest thing to do will be telling your customer "hey, you
> >should
> >send the project to Bangalore, that could save you a lot of money!" ;)
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: trilug-bounces at trilug.org [mailto:trilug-bounces at trilug.org] On
> >Behalf
> >Of Jim Wright
> >Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 7:43 AM
> >To: Triangle Linux Users Group discussion list
> >Subject: RE: [TriLUG] OT: Developer Rates
> >
> >Again, IANAL, but this is where I had read this previously....
> >>From http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/priceFAQ.html ...
> >
> >"Is it illegal to discuss pricing?
> >The short answer: YES (at least in the U.S. where many of our members
> >are).
> >
> >The U.S. law specifically makes discussion of pricing between
> >competitors
> >(all or some) a federal offense. According to either Marshall Kragen or
> >Lewis Rose (both practicing lawyers), several brokers in DC were
> >successfully prosecuted for simply discussing an increase of fees at a
> >dinner meeting.
> >
> >When, where, or how doesn't matter. Any discussion of pricing by a group
> >of
> >people within the same industry is illegal in the U.S. The feds call it
> >price fixing."
> >
> >And this is from a DOJ document at
> >http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/guidelines/primer-ncu.htm
> >
> >"Price Fixing
> >
> >Price fixing is an agreement among competitors to raise, fix, or
> >otherwise
> >maintain the price at which their goods or services are sold.
> >It is not necessary that the competitors agree to charge exactly the
> >same
> >price, or that every competitor in a given industry join the conspiracy.
> >Price fixing can take many forms, and any agreement that restricts price
> >competition violates the law. Other examples of price-fixing agreements
> >include those to:
> >
> >Establish or adhere to price discounts.
> >
> >Hold prices firm.
> >
> >Eliminate or reduce discounts.
> >
> >Adopt a standard formula for computing prices.
> >
> >Maintain certain price differentials between different types, sizes, or
> >quantities of products.
> >
> >Adhere to a minimum fee or price schedule.
> >
> >Fix credit terms.
> >
> >Not advertise prices.
> >In many cases, participants in a price-fixing conspiracy also establish
> >some
> >type of policing mechanism to make sure that everyone adheres to the
> >agreement"
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: trilug-bounces at trilug.org [mailto:trilug-bounces at trilug.org] On
> >Behalf
> >Of Mike M
> >Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 11:40 PM
> >To: Triangle Linux Users Group discussion list
> >Subject: Re: [TriLUG] OT: Developer Rates
> >
> >On Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 04:33:32PM -0400, Jim Wright wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I would look for some of the general salary surveys that are out there
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>on the web for info.  Keep in mind that discussing specific rates with
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>people who could be considered your competition is illegal.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >No it isn't.  You're thinking of price fixing where a small number of
> >concerns with the power to control the market colude to avoid competing
> >with
> >each other.
> >
> >--
> >Mike
> >
> >Moving forward in pushing back the envelope of the corporate paradigm.
> >
> >
>
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