OT: OT: OT: OT: RE: What is OK to post here [ Was Re: [TriLUG] OT: windows firewall ]

Jos Purvis purvis at melete.org
Fri Oct 29 14:03:58 EDT 2004


Urk. I had to think long and hard before posting, but I think this is a 
really important discussion to have. Might even make a good discussion to 
have at a meeting, although I'd have to dial in to contribute. :-D

Dave Sorenson wrote:
> Yes the list goes off topic to include cold beverages, Windows OS questions,
> Solaris, picnics, etc.. What KEEPS the list off topic longer (and usually
> longer than the OT thread would last anyway) are the zealots chiming in the
> "This is off topic, you must stop this" replies. I will admit I'm as guilty
> of responding to this as anyone else. I don't believe that people should
> have to RTFM before asking for help from people who have been there already.
> More than half of the posts that are ON topic aren't of interest to me so I
> hit delete without complaint. The off-topic stuff is low noise IMHO and not
> a distraction. In fact, I have learned a number of new things spawned from
> so called Off-topic threads.

+1. I know I've been guilty of this in the [recent] past, too. I don't 
mind--in fact, I encourage--questions like, "What do Linux people use to 
protect a Windows box when you have to put one online?" or "What evidence 
have you seen suggesting a rebound or lack thereof in the tech sector?" 
Those are great for discussion. Speaking personally, the only things I have 
an objection to are these:
1) People posting are those not designed to engender discussion but instead 
advance an agenda--"$DISTRIBUTION sucks and you're an idiot if you use it." 
"$CANDIDATE is best for this country and $OTHER_CANDIDATE stinks." Notice 
that one of those could even be labeled "on-topic" for the list--it's the 
phrasing that tends to obliterate discussion and foment arguments.

2) Answers that offer only trolls but nothing useful. Answering the question 
"My Windows users have problems accessing my Squid proxy" with "Don't use 
Windows and you won't have that problem" doesn't help, it just tends to 
drive people off the list. As another example (as has come up a couple of 
times), if someone asks "How do I enable telnet for root," answering with 
"Use SSH, loser" doesn't do him any good. Answering with, "You can enable 
that by doing X, Y, and Z...but you might want to consider SSH [or some 
other alternative] if you haven't already because of A, B, and C" is 
actually useful, and still gets the point across that You Shouldn't Do That. 
(As I've had to learn the hard way more than once, just because You 
Shouldn't Do That doesn't mean that you won't sometimes Have To Do That.)

It would probably help for the Steering Committee to pick a consistent 
stance among themselves for what they want to see on the list and how to 
handle violations, and then (gently!) enforce said stance together. A couple 
of polite reminders (and perhaps a periodic reminder FAQ posted to the list 
about what's expected) would likely go a long way towards fostering community.

> Lets discuss this further, hammer out some sort of agreement? Truce?
> Understanding? And get back to the fun stuff so we don't have to wear our
> nomex underpants again in a few weeks.

Amen. I still get loads of useful information from this list, which is why 
I've kept my subscription active even after changing coasts. I think I've 
always been the peacemaker, so while I'm happy to have reasoned and honest 
discussion, I'm the first to get twitchy when people begin making it 
personal and getting angry, and to my disappointment I've seen a lot of that 
on this list lately. A thought for all (yes, including me): before posting, 
re-read your post and ask yourself how someone else would read what you've 
written. Remember, while you're reading, that email is a fundamentally lousy 
communication medium: no body language, no facial expressions, no verbal 
connotations. People will tend to take what you say literally, so play nice, 
and when in doubt, no one ever got in trouble for posting something that was 
too nice. *grin*

		--Jos

-- 
/  Jos Purvis (purvis at melete.org) ||  Yet Another Security Geek  \
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| I just can't haiku / I can never remember / how many...MY EYE! |
|     -- Mike Sphar, demonstrating his poetic abilities in SDM   |



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